Keep God. Lose the Traditions.

Let’s talk nights. You’ve already had one under your belt. We’re back. I’ve got the Ojis and I’ve got the Girons. And we’re going to talk about the three time vision building a life changing, non-traditional and nondenominational church. Hopefully your less talk nights are where, like I said, a big, uh, a big celebratory, um, victory and you’ll be able to get a vision for more and more what you can do. Uh, and hopefully you took time to go through and talk about not just on the night last night, but through the week about keep the Bible as our standard, commit to becoming like Jesus, sustain our passion for doing and evangelizing good, sustain our passion for loving and evangelizing God today. And talking about the three time vision, the three time vision you hopefully have heard this a little bit before is about three things having a life changing church and building one non-traditional church and non-denominational. Let’s start with Matthew fifteen, everybody, and then I’ll bring in our guest very quickly. That’s one thing I learned last week. Got to bring them in quicker. Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, A lot of you are familiar with this passage. Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders question Mark the tradition of the elders. They don’t wash their hands before they eat. Now, we all are familiar with washing after the pandemic. Washing those hands. Jesus replied, and why do you break the command of God for the sake of the tradition? So verse two says, why do you break the tradition of the elders? That’s the Pharisees. Then Jesus comes back and says, why do you break the command of God? So there’s a tension here between the tradition of the elders, the command of God in verse four, For God said, honor your father and mother, and anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is devoted to God, they are not to honor their father or mother with it. Thus you nullify the Word of God for the sake of tradition. So it starts out and it says, God said, and then it goes on and says, but you say, Jesus, contrast what God says with what you say. He’s going. You guys have a personal preference in a way. You want to do this thing, but then God’s got a way. He wants it done. And these two are running in conflict right now. Verse seven, you hypocrites, you actors, you hypocrites. Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you. These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain. Their teachings are merely human rules. You know, I just finished reading a book called Taking God Seriously by J.I. Packer. I think that’s the title, Taking God seriously. And a lot of times what we don’t understand in this passage is it’s not he’s not condemning the Pharisees saying, you guys aren’t taking God seriously. Let’s talk. Nights are a really big opportunity for us here. It’s an opportunity to take a nice little swath of scripture like that nine verses, and sort of put them to work helping us. And they’re an essential innovation for helping us. Let’s talk nights are for helping us make God’s church more accessible. As we discussed on many occasions in the live stream and in our own conversations. Increasing numbers of people are saying yes to God, but no to church. The statistics bear that out. Whether you look at Pew research, you look at Gallup, you look at Barna. Wherever you go, you’re going to find increasing numbers of people are saying, I still say yes to God, but I say no to church. How can we, or any Christians for that matter, make church more accessible to those on the outside? Jesus teaches us in Matthew fifteen one through nine. His answer is simple Keep God, lose the traditions. What I want to kind of discuss with all of you guys is how do we go about looking at this building a life changing, non-traditional, non-denominational church, looking at what Jesus told the Pharisees, look, we’re going to keep God, but we’re not going to hold on to traditions. We’re not saying traditions are bad. Traditions are just defined as beliefs and customs handed down from generation to generation. But traditions become difficult when they start to be more important than God’s Word. And I just want to hear your thoughts about that. I know you guys have been thinking about it, and it can really help us generate a great discussion in the house, churches and of course, amongst ourselves. What do you think when we talk about these principles? Life changing, non-traditional, non-denominational? What is life changing mean to you? Now? When I think of life changing, you know, I think of the Scripture, first Thessalonians two, verse eight, where it says, because of our love for you, we were ready to share with you not only the good news from God, but even our own lives. You were so dear to us. I thought of that scripture I think about when I first came to church, and I heard people being honest and real and not faking it. It had a tremendous impact on my life. I was like, whoa, I’ve never seen this at church. It was crazy. I’ve never seen people talk about real issues, their sins, their struggles, their weaknesses. And I just kind of listened and watched. So did you go to church before I did? Oh, really? Yes. I never went to church. Me neither. See, I went to church and no one talked about anything real. Where I went. You were not awake in church or alert in church a lot of times. So. right. Oh, you. Did you go to church? Did you go? Did. I was one of those. You went to church tonight? No, I did not go to church. I. Yeah. Sometimes they got me in, but I was like, how do you get out? Sometimes they got me. And you sound like they’re getting you to Attic or San Quentin. I did not like it. Okay. So let me let me just let me just put this to you guys. So life changing means different things to different people, huh? It means one thing, maybe to someone who’s been going to church, whereas they have, like Martin has a, a way of viewing church because he had been. And so he went and was like, wait a minute, no one’s real. No one’s being themselves. No one’s telling the truth. So he automatically walks into a church and sees people being real and says, hey, this is life changing. Uh, my view as a person who didn’t go to church and was pretty much an agnostic was, I don’t care what you do in church, I’m not coming. Because to me, life changing was you become a millionaire, you become a governor, you become a senator, you build your own company. And if someone’s just like talking about being real. I’m like, great. They can get a campfire, sing Kumbaya, have a real good time in the mountains. But that, to me, isn’t life changing. My idea of life changing is, you know, you go from can’t do something to can do something. You go from, you know, two point zero GPA to three point eight GPA. That was my idea of life changing. So I never respected people who just chatted and talked about their lives. And, you know, I had, I had people I knew that they’d go to the church camps and they’d go to the church talks and they did all that stuff. But I was looking for someone who was going to the NFL, Major League Baseball, NBA, you know, going to become a foreign diplomat, get into an Ivy League school. And so all that stuff didn’t mean anything to me. So I find it interesting listening to you guys, because I think you’re right. But I think there’s this whole other population of people who are like, uh, that’s not my standard for life changing. Life changing to me is earth moving, earth shaking. So I find that very interesting. What does life changing feel like to you, Michelle? Yeah, I think I’m a little bit of both. So I tried out different churches. Um, I, I feel like the thing that life changing in me, the first thing I thought of was purpose and destiny. That was the biggest thing that stood out to me when I became a Christian. Um, because the idea that I’d never read the Bible, um, I just heard it, you know, if I went to heard it from a priest or a preacher or something like that. Um, so the first time I read it and seeing that God had like a specific destiny or purpose plan for my life, that was the thing that I was like, this is life changing because this is way bigger than anything. This changes the course of my life. Um, so that was kind of for me. I feel like it still is. Purpose is I feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. I think people get fired up when they think like, I think the thing I did wrong was life changing to me also was selfishly ambitious. And I know Martin will have my back on that, uh, that how can I get to the top, you know, and he’s, he was acting really good before. Like, I like going to church and seeing real people. He’s got another side. He’s got another side that maybe he’ll talk about it later, but I think it’s that combination because some people will hear life changing and go, yeah, I want to be a doctor. And which is great. Um, but it’s the motive also, and the thing I had to do was take all of my drive to make a difference in the world and learn to serve people and not just serve myself, but I like what Martin is talking about because what he’s really talking about. And I know, Christian, you grew up in the church. What he’s really talking about is you can be in a church with a culture that is not, uh, is not, is not life changing where, where everybody basically says, because I’m in, I no longer need to change. I think that’s what you’re saying, right, Martin. I’m now part of it. And once I’m part of it, I don’t need to change because I’ve already arrived. I literally have no need to grow anymore because I’ve become a member. And I’m wondering for people who grow up in the church or have been around it for twenty plus years or whatever, is, is that a problem in being able to get comfortable saying, wait a minute, church shouldn’t just be life changing before you become a Christian. It should be life changing after. And one would argue, more life changing after than in the process of becoming. I know that’s a lot there, Christian. Tell me what you think. Yeah, no, I that makes sense I think. Yeah, first of all, for me, I spent almost my entire life, you know, going to church. Um, and I think, you know, it’s definitely the thing I think of with this church in general. I think for me, I had to, I feel like I, I had an example of like what it meant to be like a real Christian. You know, I think like my parents, um, I think of one of my best friends, Jacob, like I think of, I was fortunate enough not to just have parents that are Christians, you know, but also that like, um, having a friend and parents that set an example of like love and sacrifice. So when I think of, you know, Christianity, that’s what kind of inspired me. I was just being rebellious. And I was like, I don’t want to do that. I want to do my own thing. I want to do whatever I want. You know, you got to dig in on that a little bit. Dig in on that. Why? Why didn’t you want to do it? You know, I just wanted to because you saw my game and you knew you wouldn’t be the best basketball player. Oh, wow. I mean, what was it? Dreams. What was dreams? Try to choose a different route. No, I think, uh, honestly, I think I just wanted things to be easy, and I want. I didn’t want to dig. I didn’t want to have to feel anything. I didn’t want to have to challenge myself. I wanted to be able to do whatever I want, whenever I wanted and just not care. Do you think that do you think that’s something that happens to kids who grow up in the church a lot? Is that they, they, they they they see what Martin is talking about. They see that there is an aspect of their life that will have to change, where they have to be more real, more honest, where they have to have a sense of vision for being something that can not only be good for them, but good for others. And they don’t want to do that kind of work. Is that what you’re saying? Oh yeah, for sure. I think people see that. I think they also see rules, you know, which I used to think God is a cop and if I mess up, I have a question, Christian? Easy. Some. Some of my best friends are police. Easy now. Christian. I have a question, though. I have a question. Are. Why did you think it was rebellious? I only asked because. I mean, we’re going to have a kid that grows up in the church, but I don’t know, like you grew up in the church, but you are still not a Christian, so you still had to, like, learn everything. So why do you consider it rebellious? Uh, probably because I knew better, but chose to chose to just do what I wanted, if that makes sense. Like I knew what the right thing was to do. Like even amongst almost basically all my friends were at school, you know, and, and I knew being against the religious part of me, like I knew what I should do and shouldn’t do. And some things I did, some things I didn’t. But I think that was the part of me where I was like, I think in my head, I had this view of like, well, let me, let me, let me help you out a little bit. You mentioned the Golden State Warriors earlier, right. And the Golden State Warriors were rebellious in the n b a because the Golden State Warriors said, hey, we’re going to shoot three pointers and we’re going to win a championship shooting threes. And I didn’t believe it. I was like, you can’t do that. And so that that that was rebellious. I think one of the things you’re talking about, and I just want to help out a little bit here is you were going to public school, I think, right. Where’d you go to high school? Yeah, Hercules high school, Hercules High school. And your dad happens to be a member of the USF Dons basketball team from the eighties. It was one of the best I ever saw. And I mean, just incredible. Um, but it seems to me that when you’re an athlete and you were an athlete, pretty good athlete, very good athlete, um, that when you’re in the world and you’re comfortable and you’re succeeding and you have friends, then you have a choice and it’s hard to make that choice. And I think that what Jeanette’s getting at is there can be a sense of, uh, I need to conform. And when you have to conform, uh, you might get your body in the church, but your heart will never belong to God. And that’s what traditions do. Traditions get us feeling like, I’ve got to follow these traditions, and I’ve got to do what the rules say. And you pointed that out. And what we’re trying to do is get to a place where there’s less, fewer rules. And being a life changing church means you’re trying to change your heart. You’re trying to change your mind, how you think, how you react, what motivates you, what your purpose is. And when you get that kind of life changing going on, traditionalism doesn’t get that done. Uh, and I think that one of the things I know your parents a little bit, your dad better more than your mom, but but just the nature of where he came from and where your family comes from. Pac twelve refs. ET cetera. ET cetera. ET cetera. Um, I think there’s probably a bit of in all of them of being willing to be different. And I think it’s important in listening that when a kid grows up in church and has choices, we’ve got to do something more than hand out the rules and say, here’s what you follow. And instead, we’ve got to be attractive. And I think sometimes we don’t sit down and think, hey, is this is this group of people we’re sitting in, in, in the living room right now? We’re with our ten or eleven friends that are in the church. Maybe we have a friend that joined. It isn’t in the church. How comfortable are we with people who aren’t in the church? How comfortable are we creating an environment where other people are attracted to it and not just us? How much do we spend time? As Jeanette talked about thinking, hey, what am I going to be able to do to help somebody like me one day find God? Those kind of thoughts should go through our minds. So as we discuss and talk tonight, I think there’s probably three things we got to look at. And you guys can, can, can comment on this if you want to. But one, we’ve got to ask, do we all want to have a life changing church? That’s a discussion point for tonight. Do we all want are we all do we all understand the importance of a non-traditional church? I think that’s what Jeanette was getting at a church where it’s not necessarily about you’re being rebellious. In some cases, you were probably cooler than some of the people that were cruising around the fellowship. And so you might have been rebelling. You might have been rebelling against being boring and thought you were rebelling against being Christian. And number three non-denominational, a God focused church. See, when we’re God focused, we can put aside all these preconceived notions and say, What is God trying to get done? Tonight is a great time to talk about being like Jesus, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. It’s a good time to talk about the three time vision, because I think we don’t always want to talk about it, and we’re going to all discover more about it in the. Let’s talk. Nice to come. Thanks for listening. We hope your midweek Bible talk replacement called Let’s Talk Night is getting off to a fabulous start. We’ll see you next week.